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Forum:2018-12-21 (Friday)
Discussion for comic for . Genius is an infinite capacity for making edits. ---- All speculations about the Other aside, that certainly resembles Enigma quite a bit. --Kuopiofi (talk) 05:12, December 21, 2018 (UTC) : I wouldn't have said so; the pointy things you're taking as hair strike me more as armor, , and the actual hair is flowing, not unlike Agatha's. This figure isn't wearing a hood. I guess she's more like the Muse of Time in van Rijn's Hermitage, but the most distinctive part of this attacker, below the waist, isn't visible in either Enigma picture, so it's hard to say. Bkharvey (talk) 05:37, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :: Considering Enigma and Muse of Time are same being? --Kuopiofi (talk) 12:32, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :: If I recall correctly, the Muse of Time was recorded to have different appearances by Van Rijn every time he had a sighting. --MadCat221 (talk) 14:56, December 21, 2018 (UTC) ::: Ahh, . --MadCat221 (talk) 14:12, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :::: Might this version be what Vrin described as the Lady of Sharp Crystal? (ramblin_rosie) 19:43, December 22, 2018 (UTC) : ... But is your idea that the Mirrors violate the laws of time? Or perhaps that the way immortality happens is a freezing of time kind of like the opposite of Prende's lantern, so time passes for everyone else but not for the user? Bkharvey (talk) 06:07, December 21, 2018 (UTC) ::We know the mirrors can interact with Time & Distance---it DID! With Agatha. If it can do so unintentionally, it can do so intentionally. Bosda Di'Chi (talk) 11:34, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :::Plus there are the altars Ghengis Ht'rok-din used to conquer much of the Europa, and those allow teleportation between them and demonstrably time-travel. --Kuopiofi (talk) 12:32, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :::: No, we know the Mirrors can do that in conjunction with another piece of powerful Spark technology, and only in the conventional past-to-future direction -- I don't think what happened to Agatha was time travel so much as it was signal lag. And the Ht'rok Din was summoned by Elmira Winters, not through his altars.PhoenixTalion (talk) 16:39, December 21, 2018 (UTC) ::::: Ht'rok Din returned back to his time using altar, and he knew it'd work. That has some interesting implications. --Kuopiofi (talk) 05:09, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :::::: Namely, the interesting implication is that the whole episode is pointless. If he knew what was going to happen, there was no need for all that macho posturing and breakage of exhibits. (Time travel stories always give me a headache. The authors always want to have their cake and eat it too.) Bkharvey (talk) 07:35, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :::::: The breaking of exhibit cases was to gather the contents to take with him. Argadi (talk) 22:04, December 22, 2018 (UTC) ::::::: Oy. So he didn't have those things until after being summoned to his future? That wouldn't support the professor's remark about causality. Bkharvey (talk) 22:59, December 22, 2018 (UTC) ::::::::He didn't have them when he came to future. He certainly knew what to look for, so he likely had them in past. --Kuopiofi (talk) 12:11, December 23, 2018 (UTC) It took me a while to figure out who "we" meant in the last panel, until I remembered about royalty and the plural. (Interesting, by the way, that plural-as-respect survives in languages such as French and Spanish in the second person, but today in the first person it just sounds silly. Imagine Tarvek calling himself "we"!) ➤ I'm interested in Sianna having "sealed the Mirror." This suggests to me that the Queens at least understood how to operate the Mirrors, if not the engineering behind them. I'd gotten the impression, I think from Moonbark, that it was always a surprise who turned up in a Mirror. ➤ Are we about to learn that when Albia arrived home through the Mirror (and how would it know where to send her: today's quibble), she promptly put a shoe through it? Bkharvey (talk) 05:51, December 21, 2018 (UTC) : I mean, they have no obvious external controls, so one could ask how they ever know where to send someone. Sianna is also the one who was specifically mentioned as studying the Mirrors, so it's entirely possible she's more adept with them than the other Queens. PhoenixTalion (talk) 08:09, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :: The Mirror in Mechanicsburg at least has controls in the form of clusters of circular lights- The Abbess pushes one of them when preparing to travel through it. --Geoduck42 (talk) 19:05, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :::Whoop, missed that. Going back though, it looks like the have the same supporting female figures and decoration at the top, so I guess the archway is part of the mechanism and not just the monolith. This also strongly suggests to me that the Mirror under the Red Cathedral is in its original location, not something the Heterodynes found elsewhere and brought home as spoils. PhoenixTalion (talk) 20:00, December 21, 2018 (UTC) :::. :::The Refuge of Storms mirror looks substantially different. Rather than being a monolith standing proud of the wall or within a stone altar, it is in a riveted frame of metal with tubes, plumbing, etc. Hallmarks of current Sparkery rather than the stone-based ancients. A possible direction of thought would be to hacking into the ancient network with modern tech. ::::Which could likewise indicate Lucrezia's involvement, assuming she's the one who built both that portal and the "gateway" in Sturmhalten that Vrin claimed Loremistress Milvistle had destroyed. (We know from Zola that Milvistle was indeed a traitor to the Geisters' cause, but we don't know whether she actually did destroy the Sturmhalten gateway or whether it melted down due to a power surge the same way the Refuge of Storms gateway did.) We can probably also assume a third gateway in a Mongfish residence that Lucrezia used to ship Klaus off to Skifander, on the assumption that he wouldn't be able to use Queen Luheia's Mirror to get back. If all of the above is correct, that raises the question of just what Lucrezia wanted the mirror network for. (ramblin_rosie) 19:43, December 22, 2018 (UTC) P.S. Sianna has sienna-colored skin. :-) Bkharvey (talk) 06:03, December 21, 2018 (UTC) In the first frame, the attacker has two eyes, but in the final frame, she seems to have a mask a lot like the Queen of the Dawn's emblem. It could just be being three-eyed like Sianna, I guess. 19:33, December 21, 2018 (UTC) ::...That is Sianna in the last panel. PhoenixTalion (talk) 20:00, December 21, 2018 (UTC) An argument against it being Enigma/Muse of Time: This attacker seems to be taking pleasure in killing. The text doesn't exactly say so, but it seems pretty clear to me from the general tone. ("Laughed at us.") If you accept that, I don't think it fits with what we know about the seventh-dimensional meanies, whose stance is more like squashing bugs. (Think of the Dreen, who are always calm.) This attack is more Other-like; she does seem to take pleasure in killing (or enslaving). But I'm not saying it's the Other for sure; a pirate, such as Bang, would fit this role too -- especially since the attacker seems to have two peg-legs! :-) Bkharvey (talk) 07:23, December 22, 2018 (UTC) : I thought the implication of the encounter with the Muse of Time in Van Rijn's hermitorium (especially , , and ) was that she's not one of the Eldritch Horrors but either is the Other/Lucrezia or interacted with Lucrezia enough prior to the Other War that Lu-in-Agatha knew how to free her. Then again, Euphrosynia Heterodyne disappeared from Van Rijn's lab and is still unaccounted for.... (ramblin_rosie) 19:43, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :: But on we learn that it was the Dreen that Robur Heterodyne attracted with his machine, and that van Rijn used "Muse of Time" to mean one of Robur's attractees (I imagine, the one not working for Klaus). You're right, I'd forgotten that Agatha got the knowledge of how to free the Muse from Lucrezia, but there was clearly something more than knowledge involved; Agatha was compelled to free the Muse. Could Lucrezia-in-Agatha do that? She can't ordinarily compel Agatha-in-Agatha to do stuff. But actually I'm confused about this, because the strange being Agatha frees doesn't have the sang-froid of the Dreen. Still, if that's Lucrezia that Agatha freed, it's a Lucrezia from the far, far future, not Lucrezia-looking at all. Bkharvey (talk) 22:56, December 22, 2018 (UTC) ::: I view the compelling as easy, as it is something that Agatha would have been interested in doing in any case. If it would take scrubbing the floor on hands and knees to free the Muse it would have been harder to compel her to do it. Argadi (talk) 00:22, December 23, 2018 (UTC) :::: A different situation, you mean, from Bang and Tarvek. :-) Bkharvey (talk) 01:43, December 23, 2018 (UTC) :::: We know Lucrezia-in-Agatha can and Sparks in the madness place aren't really given to questions like "is what I'm about to do a good idea, just because I know I can do it?" PhoenixTalion (talk) 16:38, December 23, 2018 (UTC) P.S. Shouldn't a queen refer to another queen as "they"? Bkharvey (talk) 07:23, December 22, 2018 (UTC) : It doesn't exactly answer your question, but Wikipedia says: In diplomatic letters, such as letters of credence, it is customary for monarchs to use the singular first-person (I, me, my) when writing to other monarchs, while the majestic plural is used in royal letters to a president of a republic. Argadi (talk) 11:37, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :: Thanks. Although the article doesn't say this, it reminded me that when I've heard third person plurals about royalty, it's not "they" but "their majesty." So I now think that that's what Albia-in-well should have said to Gil and Trelawney in reference to Sianna. Bkharvey (talk) 22:56, December 22, 2018 (UTC) Does anyone have any ideas about the decoration of the attacker's pants? The baseball diamond on the right thigh and the triangle-with-panhandle on the left? And, are all those soldiers Sianna's, or are some of them attackers too? Bkharvey (talk) 02:22, December 23, 2018 (UTC) : I suspect they'd be mechancial legs, if we saw them more clearly. It also kinda reminds me of the decoration on the supporting figures of the Mirrors. PhoenixTalion (talk) 16:38, December 23, 2018 (UTC)